| | <<<Back 1 day (to 2011/10/28) | 2011/10/29 |
| domus | But that still means I can not redistribute it along with a package I ask money for, right? | 00:00.30 |
| Robin_Watts | domus: It's not that simple. | 00:00.49 |
| domus | PDFDraw would be left intact. Just called once in a while. | 00:00.53 |
| | I was afraid of that. :) | 00:01.01 |
| Robin_Watts | Firstly, I am not a lawyer, and so you should seek proper advice on this. | 00:01.14 |
| domus | I'm not a lawyer either and had hoped there was some simple solution. | 00:01.15 |
| | Since I adore lawyers, I better seek out someone who's knowledgeable. | 00:02.24 |
| Robin_Watts | BUT... my understanding/belief is that you CAN supply GPL code along with non GPL code, as long as the end user keeps the freedoms that he would have had with the original GPL release. | 00:02.27 |
| | in other words, if you link it into your executable, you need to give people the freedom to relink with changed code. | 00:02.54 |
| domus | That is what I had hoped to get as a response from Artifex. | 00:02.54 |
| Robin_Watts | But it sounds like you're not linking it in. | 00:03.15 |
| | You're keeping it as a separate executable. | 00:03.25 |
| domus | It won't be linked into the executable (is that even possible in Delphi project in this case?). Just called via command line. | 00:03.34 |
| Robin_Watts | So, to my reading of the GPL you are fine, as long as you abide by the terms of the GPL. | 00:03.50 |
| | (Identify the code, provide at least a pointer to the source you used, etc) | 00:04.09 |
| domus | So, I just supply the GPL licence along with it, correct? | 00:04.10 |
| | Okido, I'm glad my understanding of the licence is correct. | 00:04.48 |
| | Just got thrown off by the Artifex reply. | 00:04.58 |
| Robin_Watts | Other companies have done similar things with GPL products - some go further by forcing people to download and install the GPL product separately. | 00:05.11 |
| | I believe I've heard other engineers on here express a different slant on their understanding of the GPL though, so you need to perform your own investigation. | 00:06.13 |
| domus | Okay. Just wanted to include the file with the installation in order to keep things simple for the user. | 00:06.34 |
| | Yes, I'll most certainly perform further investigation | 00:06.55 |
| | I just love to spend time in legal stuff. ;) | 00:07.12 |
| Robin_Watts | The Artifex corporate reply you've got from Scott basically concerns the ability to get an Artifex license rather than a GPL one. | 00:07.16 |
| | Most companies prefer to avoid the GPL entirely for a simple life. | 00:07.50 |
| | Artifex *has* successfully sued people for shipping it without an Artifex license, and failing to abide by the GPL license. | 00:08.17 |
| domus | Avoiding the GPL means going through Artifex? | 00:08.20 |
| Robin_Watts | Yes. | 00:08.32 |
| domus | But they want huge volume promises first, right? | 00:08.48 |
| Robin_Watts | Hence Scotts focus is on dealing with Artifex license; he has no interest in doing anything with GPL, cos it won't profit the company at all. | 00:09.14 |
| domus | Aha | 00:09.25 |
| Robin_Watts | They want a quarterly minimum, I believe, yes. | 00:09.25 |
| domus | And part of their revenue goes to the developers, right? | 00:09.50 |
| Robin_Watts | Yes. | 00:09.58 |
| | Artifex pay our wages. | 00:10.06 |
| domus | Okay | 00:10.10 |
| | I'd get nervous otherwise. :) | 00:10.28 |
| Robin_Watts | Pretty much all the development work on gs and mupdf is done by staff/contractors employed for by Artifex. | 00:11.02 |
| | They (or, I should say, we) are not 'leeching' in any way. It's a shining example of how open source can work commercially. | 00:11.38 |
| domus | I had no idea. So first there was Artifex, then there was gs and mupdf? | 00:11.44 |
| | Indeed. It's just not always very intuitive for "users" of the tools. | 00:12.16 |
| | And a bit scary, to be honest. | 00:12.22 |
| | Developers tend to pee in their pants around licensing issues. | 00:12.34 |
| Robin_Watts | gs started as a project by L.Peter Deutsch. He released it both commercially and as open source. | 00:12.50 |
| | He eventually passed the torch to Artifex as he stepped away from the project. | 00:13.26 |
| domus | I see. Thanks for that background. | 00:13.38 |
| Robin_Watts | mupdf was tor8's baby originally, but it's been funded by Artifex since it was still in nappies. | 00:13.50 |
| domus | Would there be an OEM who has dealt with all the licensing issues and sells the toolkit to developers? | 00:14.16 |
| | What is Artifex's interest in keeping the GPL licence? | 00:14.48 |
| Robin_Watts | domus: Good question. | 00:15.02 |
| | It costs us time and effort to support it. | 00:15.21 |
| domus | So the open source part might go south over time? | 00:15.34 |
| Robin_Watts | but we get visibility for it. | 00:15.36 |
| | I don't think the open source thing will change. | 00:16.16 |
| | Speaking for myself, I've worked on closed source projects, and I prefer open source. | 00:16.39 |
| | It's in the companies DNA. | 00:16.43 |
| | We do occasionally get fixes etc from outside (and we even pay for them - see the Bug Bounty programme) | 00:17.13 |
| domus | Good to hear. :) Just wish there were a simple way to use it in a commercial product. | 00:17.30 |
| | Especially a low volume one. | 00:17.51 |
| Robin_Watts | There is an overhead in admin in dealing with every new customer. | 00:18.36 |
| | Plus a support cost. | 00:18.51 |
| | Anything we do commercially has to justify those costs. | 00:19.06 |
| domus | I wouldn't demand support (or administration for that matter, lol). | 00:19.24 |
| Robin_Watts | It does mean that there is a problem with low volume, low cost licensing. | 00:19.44 |
| | but try and get a comparable deal from Adobe :) | 00:19.54 |
| domus | Oh heavens | 00:20.01 |
| Robin_Watts | At least you have the GPL version to fall back on. | 00:20.12 |
| domus | But one can use their ActiveX for free, or am I wrong? | 00:20.17 |
| | Yes, a fuzzy licence with a permanent lawyer threat. :) | 00:20.39 |
| Robin_Watts | If it's installed on the machine already, then yes, you can use it. | 00:21.01 |
| | But I don't know what's involved in shipping it. | 00:21.24 |
| | The GPL is *not* a fuzzy license. | 00:21.30 |
| domus | So, if I get this right...I could have the installer ask if the customer wants PDF support and if yes, show him the MuPDF info and then download it? | 00:22.04 |
| Robin_Watts | It's very clear (it has evolved over time and been clarified at every stage). | 00:22.12 |
| | domus: That would be one approach, yes. | 00:22.24 |
| domus | Well, my worry is that you told me you have seen Artifex go after vendors with lawyers. | 00:22.47 |
| Robin_Watts | domus: We've gone after people that were in clear violation. | 00:23.01 |
| domus | Just so I am certain not to make any mistakes: what did they do that was a violation? | 00:23.37 |
| | Not mention the licence? | 00:23.42 |
| Robin_Watts | I think at this point I have to shut up - it's probably in the settlement agreements that we don't talk about it. | 00:24.20 |
| domus | lol | 00:24.43 |
| Robin_Watts | But it was more than simply not mentioning the license. | 00:24.56 |
| domus | I'm just trying to get advice in order to things right. I'm not going to hold your responsible for anything. :) | 00:25.03 |
| | They integrated the source in their software? | 00:25.33 |
| | It was not an "arm's length" use? | 00:25.39 |
| Robin_Watts | If you provide a separate executable, that's unchanged from the public sources, include the license, include a pointer to the public sources, and allow people to replace that executable with a modified one, then you're home free, as far as my understanding goes. | 00:26.10 |
| | indeed. | 00:26.13 |
| domus | Aha! | 00:26.37 |
| Robin_Watts | Having it installed as a separate installation step is just gravy (and serves to highlight the fact that it's a separate program). | 00:27.13 |
| domus | You know what, when the project is finished (probably in 2024, the way I'm progressing) I'll just hand it to you and you can tell me where it pisses you off, GPL licence-wise. If you'll allow, of course. :) | 00:27.40 |
| Robin_Watts | We're always interested in how our stuff is used :) | 00:28.19 |
| tor8 | domus: an easier way to deal with the GPL is to GPL your own software too ;) | 00:28.23 |
| domus | lol | 00:28.31 |
| | Hi, Tor8. Thanks for the tip. :) | 00:28.38 |
| | But I won't get much money if I hand it over to Artifex, who'll require a million sells. I'll be glad if I get 100. | 00:29.11 |
| tor8 | domus, Robin_Watts: for ancient history, MuPDF started as a lazy summer afternoon project when I was still at university | 00:29.20 |
| domus | YOU're the developer? | 00:29.40 |
| tor8 | Artifex got wind of it and offered me a job | 00:29.57 |
| domus | You weakling :) | 00:30.05 |
| tor8 | yeah, MuPDF is my baby. with plenty of help from others too though! | 00:30.27 |
| domus | You wouldn't know of an OEM company who sells it as an SDK? | 00:31.10 |
| Robin_Watts | I'm sure there isn't one. | 00:31.30 |
| tor8 | nope. we're that OEM company, but I believe Robin has already explained the situation | 00:31.41 |
| domus | Yes, he did very extensively. | 00:31.57 |
| tor8 | we're too small of a company to cope with end user product type sales | 00:32.17 |
| domus | I fully understand | 00:32.24 |
| | Just wondered if there were another company who'd take care of those lone developers, but just doesn't exist. | 00:33.23 |
| | Okay, I thank you both very much for the info. | 00:34.01 |
| | Many thanks to Robin and hats off to Tor8 for the wonderful stuff he wrote. | 00:34.33 |
| | Cheers! | 00:35.48 |
| mvrhel2 | alexcher are you there? | 03:34.27 |
| | henrys: do you know what happened to the spectre machine that alexcher had? | 04:09.02 |
| | he had an ISO of the Visual studio team edition there | 04:09.21 |
| | but it appears that the machine is no longer available | 04:09.42 |
| arthurf | tor8: I was able to build and install the iOS version of MuPDF on my iPad using Xcode 3. | 04:20.59 |
| | I successfully synced two PDF files (the ISO PDF ref manual, and the PLRM - seemed fitting) | 04:21.36 |
| | Was able to browse the PDF manual and to jump to different sections | 04:22.24 |
| | It failed on the PLRM PDF file, but I'll chase that probably tomorrow. | 04:23.04 |
| | I had to change the architectural setting to a single one - e.g. just armv7, not armv6 armv7 - else the third party libraries wouldn't build. | 04:25.36 |
| | just an ARCHS string parsing thing in the build script | 04:26.21 |
| | clarifying... changed the Architectures setting in the Build settings from Standard (armv6 armv7) to Optimized (armv7) - bedtime.. | 04:37.02 |
| Robin_Watts | mvrhel2: I have the ISO here. It won't be fast, but I can upload it somewhere if you want. | 09:07.20 |
| kens | I thought it was on Peeves or something. | 09:14.57 |
| Robin_Watts | I thought it got moved off peeves cos a) disc space, and b) speed of access. | 11:06.40 |
| vtorri | with mupdf, what is the best way to get the size () width and height) of the document without any transformations ? | 16:49.16 |
| tsbtmn | A bit offtopic.. Does anyone know if there are plans to expand the supported document types in mupdf? I really like the mupdf interface and would love to have the same simple interface when viewing djvu files. | 19:37.18 |
| mvrhel2 | Robin_Watts: so you have a copy of the ISO available? | 20:55.17 |
| | alexcher: are you around? | 20:55.25 |
| alexcher | mvrhel2: yes | 21:23.14 |
| | mvrhel2: my IP address is 71.123.51.188 | 21:24.07 |
| mvrhel2 | alexcher: ah. ok | 21:48.38 |
| | let me try that | 21:48.40 |
| | alexcher ok that worked | 21:50.16 |
| | ah and there is the ISO | 21:50.40 |
| | Forward 1 day (to 2011/10/30)>>> | |
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