| | <<<Back 1 day (to 2015/05/04) | 20150505 |
| Robin_Watts | kens: We have a 3 year code sharing cert. | 08:58.53 |
| kens | Cool! | 08:58.58 |
| | WHen you say 'code sharing' does that mean we cna sign devices and stuff ? | 08:59.20 |
| Robin_Watts | code signing, sorry. | 08:59.29 |
| kens | :-D | 08:59.35 |
| | So we cna sign GSView now, and ghostpdl.inf, good news | 08:59.57 |
| Robin_Watts | actually, it seems that joann is having some trouble with the site, so though we have bought it, she can't log in to get it :) | 09:00.21 |
| kens | Oops oh dear | 09:00.29 |
| | Well I guess there's no desperate rush | 09:00.36 |
| Robin_Watts | I'll forward details as soon as it shakes itself out. | 09:00.38 |
| kens | Hm, does that mean I just got the job of signing the .inf file ? :-) | 09:00.57 |
| Robin_Watts | I was hoping so :) | 09:02.07 |
| kens | Well I guess I don't have to worry about it until the next release | 09:02.24 |
| | Currently trying to figure out what I've broken in the GC this tme | 09:02.42 |
| Robin_Watts | Joann got a receipt webpage, and it says "Please click on the link below to complete the order process". | 09:10.45 |
| | So she printed the webpage out, scanned it as a PDF and mailed it to me. | 09:11.00 |
| kens | Ah.... | 09:11.10 |
| Robin_Watts | I'm not sure how I'm supposed to click on the link :) | 09:11.11 |
| kens | Grr, both devices are pointing to the same stype, I was sure I'd fixed that :-( | 09:23.51 |
| | Sigh, missed a copy..... | 09:25.15 |
| Robin_Watts | ok, I'm in.... do we want an SHA-1 1or SHA-2 hash to be used when signing the certificate ? | 09:29.18 |
| kens | return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* | 09:29.31 |
| | default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default case */return 0; /* default cas | 09:29.32 |
| | e */return 0; /* default case */I htnk SHA-1 is deprectaed isn't it ? | 09:29.32 |
| | Miranda having a bad day..... | 09:29.53 |
| | As I was trying to say, I tink SHA-1 is deprecated isn't it ? | 09:30.04 |
| | Eg: | 09:30.44 |
| | https://konklone.com/post/why-google-is-hurrying-the-web-to-kill-sha-1 | 09:30.44 |
| | Looks like we should use SHA-2 | 09:31.02 |
| Robin_Watts | https://www.comodo.com/e-commerce/SHA-2-transition.php | 09:44.18 |
| | SHA-2 sounds good to me. | 09:44.44 |
| kens | Yeah if MS is going to deprecate SHA-1 it as well I think its important that we use SHA-2 | 09:45.45 |
| | Oooh, down to 4 seg faults, and a handful of diffs, that's a big improvement | 10:11.40 |
| tor8 | Robin_Watts: found a serious bug in fz_pack_path which caused the annotation crashes from the email | 10:20.01 |
| Robin_Watts | tor8: crashes? | 10:20.17 |
| tor8 | out of memory crash | 10:20.24 |
| Robin_Watts | tor8: easily fixable? | 10:20.29 |
| tor8 | typo in fz_malloc_array | 10:20.31 |
| | it's allocating path_len * path_len * sizeof(float) | 10:20.39 |
| Robin_Watts | D'Oh! | 10:20.45 |
| | bloody hell. | 10:20.54 |
| | And yet I was still seeing significant memory savings. | 10:21.04 |
| tor8 | my review process has failed :( | 10:21.07 |
| | the test file from the user has a path on the page which is enormous | 10:22.04 |
| | 50000 points or so | 10:22.14 |
| | moveto lineto closepath moveto lineto closepath with a single fill at the very end | 10:22.41 |
| Robin_Watts | yeah, I was feeding in the file that was taking 7.5Gig or something | 10:22.53 |
| | and torture-test. | 10:23.07 |
| | Well, regardless, it's got to be good news now it's fixed. | 10:23.36 |
| | Thanks for spotting that. | 10:23.39 |
| tor8 | wonder how things would fare now that it's been fixed | 10:23.55 |
| | commit on tor/master | 10:23.57 |
| Robin_Watts | tor8: Looks great. | 10:29.39 |
| | stupid bloody cluster insists on building gxps for a gs test. | 10:30.34 |
| chrisl | It has to | 10:30.49 |
| Robin_Watts | I've broken gxps. I know I've broken gxps, and pcl etc, that's why I just wanted to test gs. | 10:30.55 |
| | chrisl: why for so now? | 10:31.00 |
| chrisl | xpswrite | 10:31.06 |
| Robin_Watts | oh, for testing xpswrite. | 10:32.15 |
| kens | We have nothing else to read and render XPS files with | 10:32.32 |
| chrisl | We should tweak it so if you're not testing xpswrite, it doesn't bother with gxps | 10:32.37 |
| Robin_Watts | chrisl: I started to fiddle with refactoring for the language switch stuff while I was in in London on saturday. | 10:33.32 |
| | and i spent yesterday bashing it through a bit more. | 10:33.49 |
| | http://twiki.ghostscript.com/do/view/Ghostscript/RefactorForLanguages | 10:33.55 |
| | Those are some (brief) notes. | 10:34.03 |
| chrisl | How do you define 'topmost language'? | 10:35.47 |
| Robin_Watts | chrisl: in a language switch build, the topmost language would be the switcher. | 10:36.10 |
| | in gs builds the topmost language would be gs, etc. | 10:36.37 |
| chrisl | That's going to be a *big* change for how the Ghostscript API works | 10:40.00 |
| Robin_Watts | chrisl: Really? | 10:40.15 |
| | The attraction of this is that it's invisible from outside the ghostscript API. | 10:40.31 |
| | unless we are talking about different APIs. | 10:40.48 |
| | gsapi_blah | 10:40.55 |
| chrisl | So you'd still envisage those being in place - okay, that makes sense | 10:41.22 |
| Robin_Watts | chrisl: Yes. | 10:41.36 |
| | The big change is that this blows away the pl_universe stuff. | 10:41.48 |
| chrisl | Yes, that's pretty flawed. IMHO.... | 10:42.14 |
| Robin_Watts | chrisl: As soon as I get something worth showing you, I'll let you rip it to shreds :) | 10:43.15 |
| | I'd like that to be "when I get a first test to run through the cluster". | 10:43.33 |
| chrisl | So each language would have its own 'gs_main_instance', then an "umbrella" one for language switching | 10:43.44 |
| sebras | tor8: no errors when viewing the .epub I complained about yesterday! | 10:45.01 |
| | tor8: good work! :) | 10:45.05 |
| Robin_Watts | chrisl: yes. | 10:49.32 |
| | The wrapper would start up the language switcher language, and (somehow) tell it what sub languages to use. | 10:50.03 |
| | the language switcher would then look after the gs_main_instance's for them. | 10:50.31 |
| | any calls made to the language switcher would be passed through appropriately. | 10:50.51 |
| | I'm envisaging that the language switcher might have the freedom to deactivate/closedown languages if memory got tight. | 10:51.38 |
| chrisl | Robin_Watts: For language choosing, I think the basic idea of the current code is about the best we can expect to do - with the exception that I'd make the "magic string" an array rather than a single string | 10:51.59 |
| Robin_Watts | chrisl: I haven't looked at the current code for ls in any detail. | 10:52.25 |
| | I was assuming that it would 'peek' at the input and spot patterns that would suggest which language to use ? | 10:52.46 |
| chrisl | Yes, exactly, and each language has a single pattern to peek for - I'd like to allow for multiple patterns | 10:53.24 |
| Robin_Watts | chrisl: Sure. | 10:53.57 |
| | Or, better, to call each language to say "give me a score that represents how likely this input is to be in your language" | 10:54.20 |
| | That way knowledge about each language is kept in each language. | 10:54.40 |
| | That's what SOT and MuPDF do. | 10:54.47 |
| chrisl | That could work.... | 10:55.42 |
| tor8 | sebras: good! | 10:56.09 |
| Robin_Watts | tor8: So are we looking at 1.7b ? | 10:56.30 |
| chrisl | Robin_Watts: My concern is that I don't like the way the current code just uses "%" to spot Postscript or PDF.... | 10:56.43 |
| Robin_Watts | chrisl: ew. indeed. | 10:57.07 |
| chrisl | One problem is that PCL will basically always match.... | 10:57.32 |
| sebras | tor8: I just ran through my library of ebpus using mudraw and got a few errors. | 10:58.39 |
| | tor8: I'll have a look at those later (need to run an errand) | 10:58.52 |
| Robin_Watts | chrisl: yeah. We have scope to do better by building the assessment into the language. | 10:59.13 |
| | peek at the first (say) 4k, then do a quick parse forward. | 10:59.46 |
| chrisl | Robin_Watts: no, that's not what I mean: PCL has to literally match anything you throw at it | 11:00.10 |
| Robin_Watts | yeah, I see what you mean. | 11:00.28 |
| chrisl | Even if you throw random bytes at it, it's still "valid" PCL.... | 11:00.44 |
| kens | PCL can take just text, so there's no way to spot PCL really | 11:00.46 |
| Robin_Watts | So it's a question of the other languages having to spot their own stuff, and PCL having to accept anything that's not recognised. | 11:01.07 |
| kens | I would say so yes | 11:01.22 |
| chrisl | Yes, I think that's the best we can do | 11:01.25 |
| kens | If you exspress it as confidence PCL would always say, 50% for example | 11:01.41 |
| Robin_Watts | We have a similar situation in SO, I believe, where the text agent can accept anything. | 11:01.44 |
| kens | Then other languages could have a go, if they beat that, then its up to them | 11:01.56 |
| Robin_Watts | where we do... exactly what kens just suggested. | 11:01.58 |
| kens | heads for lunch | 11:02.31 |
| Robin_Watts | Stupid bloody linker. | 11:02.42 |
| chrisl | We could also have a fallback, where if we think it's Postscript, if the interpreter throws an error, try it as PCL (at least one printer I've worked with worked that way) | 11:03.01 |
| Robin_Watts | I have a gsinit2.c that has just 2 functions in it, which use "gs_language". Neither of those functions are referenced from the pcl build, and yet, the linker is complaining that gs_language is missing when it links. | 11:03.37 |
| | If I comment out those 2 functions, it links fine. | 11:04.02 |
| | so it clearly doesn't need them. | 11:04.08 |
| tor8 | Robin_Watts: yeah, a 1.7b by the end of the week? | 11:22.25 |
| Robin_Watts | tor8: yeah. | 11:22.39 |
| JeeWee_ | goodday to everyone | 12:16.56 |
| Robin_Watts | JeeWee_: Welcome. If you have a question, ask it, don't wait to get a response before asking, or you could be hanging around for a while :) | 12:18.05 |
| JeeWee_ | fair enough! :) | 12:18.21 |
| | I have just started learning to write some postscript | 12:18.31 |
| | and I am wondering why my code is not working | 12:18.38 |
| | im certain its something trivial | 12:18.45 |
| | let me throw it online real quick | 12:18.51 |
| Robin_Watts | use pastebin.com or something rather than pasting it here. | 12:19.07 |
| JeeWee_ | yes | 12:19.42 |
| | http://pastebin.com/z9dF6MFH | 12:19.50 |
| | as you can see its extremely simple | 12:19.57 |
| | just started doing some tutorials | 12:20.03 |
| kens | What did you want that to do ? | 12:20.27 |
| JeeWee_ | write a function to draw a box | 12:20.42 |
| | but even without it using any arguments | 12:20.56 |
| | it errors out on me | 12:20.59 |
| | i tried that code on its own.. i.e. not as a function | 12:21.08 |
| | and then it draws the box | 12:21.13 |
| | but as soon as i try to make it into a function | 12:21.20 |
| chrisl | Remove the "end" | 12:21.21 |
| kens | Yeah | 12:21.26 |
| | end closes teh current dictionary | 12:21.39 |
| | and removes it from teh dictioanry stack | 12:21.53 |
| JeeWee_ | facepalms | 12:21.53 |
| | thankyou | 12:22.02 |
| chrisl | The Blue Book can be useful.... "The PostScript Language Tutorial and Cookbook" | 12:22.33 |
| | http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/ps/sdk/sample/index_psbooks.html | 12:22.51 |
| JeeWee_ | i have it :) Currently doing "learning postscript by doing" from andre heck | 12:23.02 |
| | where i write postscript and preview it directly with gsview | 12:23.17 |
| | thankyou for the link though | 12:23.38 |
| chrisl | And what you have there is a PS file, not an EPS | 12:23.47 |
| JeeWee_ | i assume there is a specific reason you mention that | 12:24.32 |
| | could you elaborate? | 12:24.39 |
| chrisl | EPS file aren't supposed to use certain operators - in this case, showpage | 12:25.04 |
| JeeWee_ | ok | 12:25.27 |
| | i am not familair yet with the differences between them | 12:25.38 |
| | except for the fact i would like to end up, eventually, with eps files | 12:25.49 |
| | i am not learning eps so much as a programming language | 12:26.12 |
| chrisl | Basically, EPS is intended to be "placed" inside another PS job (as a logo, or similar), so doing something like emitting the page would be bad | 12:26.38 |
| JeeWee_ | but im trying to learn it so i can generate graphics without having to depend on a vector drawing program such as ilustrator | 12:26.42 |
| | yes.. hence the "encapsulated" part | 12:27.17 |
| | i must admit i am wondering wether I have bitten of more then i can chew on though | 12:27.41 |
| | the entire way of working with postfix notation, the stack etc | 12:27.59 |
| | seems ancient to me | 12:28.06 |
| chrisl | Just takes some practice - and a warped mind..... | 12:28.25 |
| JeeWee_ | haha ^_^ | 12:28.31 |
| | thanks for not taking offense and yes.. it does feel that way | 12:28.40 |
| | i just hope i can generate ps files that are good enough for production | 12:29.07 |
| | i opened an eps file generated from illustrator and there is sooo much junk in there | 12:29.24 |
| | it looks like 90% in the illustrator eps is function definitions | 12:29.38 |
| | its amazing | 12:29.40 |
| | there is even an xml embedded in there | 12:29.48 |
| | pretty much impossible to reverse engineer | 12:30.01 |
| chrisl | Yes, that's true! Fonts will be your biggest challenge for portable Postscript | 12:30.08 |
| JeeWee_ | yeah im pretty afraid of fonts | 12:30.24 |
| chrisl | Oh, I have to head out.... back in a couple of hours | 12:30.27 |
| JeeWee_ | ok thanks for you help so far! | 12:30.37 |
| | cya | 12:30.39 |
| Robin_Watts | JeeWee_: Any reason you aren't generating PDF? | 12:31.07 |
| JeeWee_ | Robin_Watts: not really no | 12:31.24 |
| Robin_Watts | *Much* simpler. | 12:31.29 |
| JeeWee_ | there is a good chance we will convert the ps to pdf in the end | 12:31.39 |
| | Robin_Watts: forgive my ignorance | 12:31.48 |
| Robin_Watts | And PDF is graphically more powerful (transparency etc) | 12:31.57 |
| JeeWee_ | but is a pdf not just a container for postscript? | 12:32.00 |
| Robin_Watts | JeeWee: No. | 12:32.07 |
| kens | : Definiely nt | 12:32.12 |
| | not* | 12:32.14 |
| JeeWee_ | today i learned i was wrong | 12:32.18 |
| | ok then | 12:32.23 |
| Robin_Watts | Postscript is a programming language. PDF is not. | 12:32.37 |
| kens | PostScript is a programming language, PDF is not, it is a page description language | 12:32.37 |
| JeeWee_ | im going to ask a really open question then | 12:32.45 |
| kens | No control operators in PDF for example, such as while, repeat loop etc | 12:32.59 |
| JeeWee_ | what do you suggest i do? is PDF a language? | 12:33.01 |
| kens | PDF is a page description language | 12:33.08 |
| | Originally PS and PDF had the same graphcis model, PDF has been extended since then | 12:33.22 |
| | PDF now includes transparency whcih PostScript does not (mostly) | 12:33.39 |
| Robin_Watts | JeeWee_: PDF files contain (at their heart) streams of page marking operators. | 12:33.50 |
| JeeWee_ | transparancy is not important to me at this stage | 12:33.56 |
| Robin_Watts | 'move here, draw here', etc. | 12:33.57 |
| | 'Put this text here in this font, in this colour'. | 12:34.11 |
| JeeWee_ | however if PDF is simpler (and i know its more modern) it seems to me thats the way to go | 12:34.14 |
| kens | Because the original graphcis model is the same, and PDF is a superset, its possible to take a PostScript program and convert it to a PDF file. | 12:34.15 |
| | It depends how you define simpler. | 12:34.26 |
| JeeWee_ | kens: ah! :) | 12:34.31 |
| kens | PDF is a binary structured format, PostScript is an unstructured program | 12:34.44 |
| JeeWee_ | ok let me clarify | 12:34.45 |
| | i am not at all in terested in programming in postscript | 12:34.53 |
| | i want to define graphics for production | 12:34.59 |
| | from what you have told me that means i should be working with pdf | 12:35.09 |
| | not ps | 12:35.11 |
| Robin_Watts | Yes. | 12:35.15 |
| JeeWee_ | this chat is very clarifying | 12:35.26 |
| kens | The *content* of a PDF file is easier since it is merely descriptions, not a program, however you need to create the structures that define the PDF file, such as the cross-refernce table for example | 12:35.29 |
| Robin_Watts | There is an initial hurdle with using PDF in that you will need to generate the PDF file structure (as opposed to PDF which is just a stream). | 12:35.56 |
| | But that's not such a big deal. | 12:36.13 |
| kens | THe PDF structure isn't that complex | 12:36.17 |
| JeeWee_ | Robin_Watts: i asssume i could use libraries for whatever programming/scripting language i end up using | 12:36.26 |
| Robin_Watts | JeeWee_: You certainly can. | 12:36.34 |
| JeeWee_ | which will probably streamline that process to a huge extend | 12:36.36 |
| kens | Don't use Cairo though, unless its suddenly improved a lot | 12:37.06 |
| JeeWee_ | ^_^ i am certain there are good and bad libraries.. i will put that one on my bad list | 12:37.34 |
| | haha | 12:37.35 |
| | so i assume i should start working my way through this then? > http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/en/pdf/PDFReference.pdf | 12:37.54 |
| kens | If you want to understnad the structure of a PDF file, yes | 12:38.11 |
| | Much of it will not be of interest to you,probably | 12:38.23 |
| | Things like forms, annotations, possibly security etc. | 12:38.45 |
| JeeWee_ | well its a reference so i need to have it anyway | 12:38.51 |
| | is there something like a pdf cookbook? | 12:38.59 |
| | similair to what i was using for postscript? | 12:39.08 |
| kens | Sure, and if you intend to work with PDF files its good to have at least an outline idea of how they are constructed | 12:39.24 |
| | THere is no cookbook though | 12:39.32 |
| JeeWee_ | agreed | 12:39.33 |
| | daww | 12:39.38 |
| | ill find something though | 12:40.02 |
| kens | There is a great szeries of PostScript and PDF articles on John Deubert's site, just a second | 12:40.03 |
| | http://www.acumentraining.com/acumenjournal.html | 12:40.47 |
| JeeWee_ | thankyou | 12:41.20 |
| kens | Other than that, take a PDF apart and see what;s in it. | 12:41.39 |
| | FOr a simple start, take the PS file you have, run it through GS with : | 12:42.06 |
| | -sDEVICE=pdfwrite -o out.pdf -dCompressPages=false | 12:42.06 |
| | That will get you a PDF file you can read (uncompressed pages) | 12:42.18 |
| | And you already know what the content should do | 12:42.30 |
| JeeWee_ | that is true! | 12:42.36 |
| kens | You can also use MuPDF to uncompress a PDF file, though I forget the magic runes of the top of my head, RObin probably knows them | 12:43.10 |
| Robin_Watts | mutool clean -difggg in.pdf out.pdf | 12:43.24 |
| JeeWee_ | thankyou | 12:44.58 |
| | time for me to read now | 12:45.04 |
| kens | "Enjoy"..... | 12:45.15 |
| JeeWee_ | hahaha | 12:45.27 |
| | one last question | 12:45.30 |
| | which i know im going to regret | 12:45.34 |
| kens | :-D | 12:45.38 |
| JeeWee_ | I have no experience with PDF at this point | 12:45.52 |
| | is it realistic to expect to be creating production ready pdf files in say.. a week? | 12:46.12 |
| kens | Probably not no | 12:46.21 |
| | Unless you use some kind of librry to do most of the work in creatng the file | 12:46.36 |
| Robin_Watts | JeeWee_: From scratch? No. Using a library? Maybe. | 12:46.37 |
| JeeWee_ | fair enough | 12:46.52 |
| Robin_Watts | What platform are you working on? | 12:47.13 |
| JeeWee_ | Robin_Watts: you are going to laugh but that is still to be decided | 12:47.25 |
| | in my dreams i'd love for it to be web based | 12:47.34 |
| Robin_Watts | And what are you wanting to generate from? Is this content you already have in an application? | 12:47.36 |
| JeeWee_ | say python and django | 12:47.47 |
| Robin_Watts | django is a text handling thing, right? | 12:48.02 |
| JeeWee_ | Robin_Watts: https://www.djangoproject.com/ | 12:48.24 |
| | and my goal at first would be to mutate a pdf | 12:48.34 |
| | for example turn a single element into a strip of x meters long | 12:48.54 |
| | in the end i would like to create content from scratch | 12:49.03 |
| Robin_Watts | So, it's something that you write websites/webapps in ? | 12:49.19 |
| JeeWee_ | currently i have created a tool within adobe illustrator through extendscript which "draws" what we need | 12:49.28 |
| | however that environment is "locked" obviously | 12:49.40 |
| | Robin_Watts: correct | 12:49.43 |
| Robin_Watts | 'element' in this case, being ? | 12:49.55 |
| | an input PDF? or an input image? Or a series of drawing commands that you have as coords etc ? | 12:50.17 |
| JeeWee_ | http://www.blomsma-safety.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/leidingidentificatie.jpg | 12:50.23 |
| | an element being a single description of whats in that pipe | 12:50.39 |
| | Robin_Watts: input eps or pdf and yes also a series of drawing commands | 12:51.04 |
| | the current process uses existing elements which get embedded and some elements are programatically drawn | 12:51.29 |
| | but as i said thats all within the adobe illustrator environment | 12:51.47 |
| Robin_Watts | JeeWee_: One possibility would be to use the ghostscript library. | 12:51.51 |
| JeeWee_ | so created a pdf is as easy as calling the saveas function | 12:51.56 |
| Robin_Watts | Start gs, using the pdfwrite device, and then send a sequence of PS commands to render the required graphics. | 12:52.53 |
| | The pdfwrite device in MuPDF isn't quite in advanced enough state for that to be an option. | 12:53.24 |
| JeeWee_ | silly question perhaps | 12:54.02 |
| kens | If you are going to use EPS, then you need a PostScript interpreter | 12:54.09 |
| JeeWee_ | why would i not use something like this: http://pyx.sourceforge.net/ | 12:54.21 |
| | since ill be writing in python for django anyway? | 12:54.30 |
| Robin_Watts | No reason at all. | 12:54.41 |
| JeeWee_ | ok. just checking :) | 12:55.02 |
| kens | A library is a library, if it does what you need, then use it :-) | 12:55.21 |
| JeeWee_ | time to brush up on my python, learn django and then learn pyx | 12:56.37 |
| kens | Wow, I htnk I just got a clean run off the cluster :-O | 12:56.44 |
| JeeWee_ | haha ^_^ (/me cries softly) | 12:56.48 |
| kens | chrisl changing so that each device is registered with the garbage collector does (after a lot of tinkering) seem to be the right solution. Still some tidying up to do I htink, but it looks like its actually working now | 12:58.16 |
| JeeWee_ | thank you all for your help again | 12:59.16 |
| kens | you're welcome | 12:59.24 |
| Robin_Watts | chrisl: OK, I got a run through that died on the gxps tests, but has passed all the others. | 13:06.25 |
| | Commit on robin/master for you comments. | 13:06.40 |
| | And from anyone else interested, obviously. | 13:07.03 |
| kens | Drat, I just realised chrisl's last commit is showing me all kinds of diffs. I'd better rebase my brach | 13:12.22 |
| henrys | looks like Robin_Watts and marcosw can save their sunlight now with Musk's new battery ... | 14:17.21 |
| kens | The reviews aren't flattering about it | 14:17.35 |
| henrys | kens: yeah and I don't think folks understand how big the storage problem really is... | 14:19.10 |
| Robin_Watts | henrys: Seems like a boondoggle to me. As ever, maybe the second version will be worthwhile. | 14:19.11 |
| kens | henrys the main problem sedems to bt eh max 2KW drain | 14:19.33 |
| | Which means you can't actually draw that much from it, you'd still need the grid | 14:19.58 |
| Robin_Watts | http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2014/07/lithium-or-vanadium-in-energy-storage-its-no-contest | 14:20.05 |
| | Vanadium is a MUCH smarter idea than lithium. | 14:20.14 |
| | I'd be much more interested to know how much energy can be stored (and for how long) in one Williams flywheels. | 14:20.52 |
| | s/one/one of/ | 14:21.01 |
| henrys | this is an old article but most of it still ringst true: http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/08/nation-sized-battery/#more-126 | 14:24.01 |
| Robin_Watts | henrys: Dunno if you read the logs from earlier. | 14:26.03 |
| | I've been playing with the start of a refactor of some of the code with a view to language switching. | 14:26.31 |
| | http://twiki.ghostscript.com/do/view/Ghostscript/RefactorForLanguages | 14:26.39 |
| | I've got a first version up on robin/master now. | 14:26.47 |
| henrys | Okay I'll read that and the logs. | 14:27.00 |
| Robin_Watts | gs runs fine, but pcl etc are all broken, cos I need to redo the pl_universe stuff. | 14:27.07 |
| | The idea is that the gsapi interface will continue to work as is. | 14:27.33 |
| henrys | great I'll read it after the meeting, the only customer concern I know about it norbert backwards compatibility wise. | 14:28.23 |
| Robin_Watts | henrys: norbert uses a vanilla PCL build, right? | 14:28.39 |
| henrys | Robin_Watts: yeah but I think he's hacked on the "Universe" stuff. | 14:29.16 |
| | Robin_Watts: we'll just tell him and we can help if he needs anything. | 14:29.44 |
| chrisl | I thought they used a modified language_switch for PCL and XPS | 14:29.46 |
| henrys | it's fine | 14:29.47 |
| | yeah he has pcl, xps and pxl going. | 14:30.10 |
| Robin_Watts | henrys: all from us? | 14:30.21 |
| rayjj | Robin_Watts: one of the issues was the 'push' vs. 'pull' difference. GS pulls data from the file/stream you provide. The pl approach pushes buffers to the language. | 14:30.42 |
| henrys | Robin_Watts: yup and postscript from adobe, I imagine that is completely separate. | 14:30.50 |
| Robin_Watts | rayjj: I've not looked at anything at that level yet. | 14:31.10 |
| chrisl | rayjj: I thought both did both push and pull | 14:31.14 |
| rayjj | gs can be run in a 'push' mode with the run_string_continue approach | 14:31.39 |
| henrys | right the string stuff is really the same thing. | 14:31.53 |
| | meeting started topic 1: language switching. | 14:32.13 |
| | we'll all read Robin_Watts twiki and comment, agreed? | 14:32.47 |
| chrisl | Clearly Robin_Watts has volunteered for that, so I'm off the hook.... | 14:32.48 |
| marcosw | morning | 14:32.50 |
| Robin_Watts | henrys: The twiki is really just some notes - there isn't a hell of a lot there yet. | 14:33.13 |
| henrys | maybe marcosw will buy the big battery ... he's a californian | 14:33.19 |
| marcosw | I have two big batteries already, they are called electric cars. | 14:34.33 |
| rayjj | marcosw: portable batteries :-) | 14:34.55 |
| mvrhel_laptop | monring | 14:35.19 |
| henrys | marcosw: hah I bet they look nicer than the new battery too. | 14:35.47 |
| fredross-perry | morning | 14:36.01 |
| rayjj | the thing that irks me is my hybrid (lexus rx-400h) won't turn on the lighter (aux power) sockets unless the car is in 'start' mode | 14:36.07 |
| Robin_Watts | rayjj: That's the case with most cigarette lighters in cars, right? | 14:36.44 |
| henrys | rayjj: is there somthing wrong with the string stuff I was hoping to have "push" for all the languages. | 14:36.56 |
| Robin_Watts | Even with petrol ones, you need to turn the key one click. | 14:37.00 |
| henrys | ? | 14:37.00 |
| rayjj | and it runs only off the little 12v lead acid battery, not the 288v "main" battery | 14:37.03 |
| | henrys: no, it works, but for small buffers it's sort of inefficient since it has to 'bubble up' the e_NeedInput error at the end of the string | 14:38.01 |
| chrisl | henrys: "push" won't work well for PDF nor XPS | 14:39.14 |
| rayjj | henrys: and, of course, it doesn't provide random access at all, so PDF and XPS require temp file buffering | 14:39.16 |
| chrisl | :-) | 14:39.35 |
| henrys | mvrhel_laptop, fredross-perry : the home office is working on the certificates, I expect that should be done sometime today. | 14:39.36 |
| rayjj | (what chrisl said) | 14:39.36 |
| mvrhel_laptop | henrys: ok great | 14:39.53 |
| fredross-perry | thank you | 14:39.57 |
| rayjj | henrys: according to the logs, Robin got in (I thought) | 14:40.03 |
| Robin_Watts | rayjj: I could log in, but there are issues with requesting the certs from different machines/web browsers. | 14:40.40 |
| | so I reset the password for joann and left it to her. | 14:40.49 |
| rayjj | Robin_Watts: not very user friendly -- what if the requester's machine dies | 14:41.56 |
| henrys | tor8: you were going to do an epub write up? | 14:41.58 |
| | Robin_Watts: oh a security thing about logging in from the same maching? | 14:42.21 |
| rayjj | the problem is that Joann only works afternoons (and not every one of those) | 14:42.38 |
| Robin_Watts | rayjj: Once we have the cert it's fine. It's the initial request that matters, AIUI. | 14:42.46 |
| | And they need to do security checks which will involve calling the office etc. | 14:43.07 |
| tor8 | henrys: http://ghostscript.com/~tor/stuff/epub2.txt | 14:43.11 |
| henrys | rayjj: this is a subscription and a I didn't want to expense it otherwise I would have done it. | 14:43.20 |
| | tor8: thanks and Robin_Watts will stuff it in the twiki or I can do it. | 14:44.01 |
| Robin_Watts | Will do that now. | 14:44.20 |
| henrys | I wanted to ask chrisl about his recent fix and why it isn't a freetype problem, but I that's not really a meeting topic. Was there already discussion about it in the logs, if so I'll just do my reading. | 14:46.04 |
| kens | No discussin no | 14:46.23 |
| | But its the font that's buggy I think,no FT | 14:46.39 |
| chrisl | henrys: it's a font problem, not a freetype problem | 14:46.45 |
| henrys | and it works in the other systems because they are not applying the hint? | 14:47.30 |
| kens | No, because they aren't doing non-square scaling | 14:47.52 |
| chrisl | Either they are not applying the hints, or they do the same as Ghostscript does now | 14:47.55 |
| henrys | chrisl: okay | 14:48.23 |
| chrisl | henrys: if it was just one font, I'd have punted it back as "not our problem", but it seems there are quite a few | 14:49.00 |
| kens | Probably all using the same dumb tool.... | 14:49.28 |
| chrisl | Yep.... | 14:49.40 |
| henrys | Quality Logic is trying to sell us the ATS-IF thing for Office 2016, I don't think we need that. There is some argument for using it for SO thought. | 14:51.57 |
| | s/thought/though | 14:52.03 |
| jogux | henrys: dunno what that is. :) got a link or details you can forward? | 14:53.09 |
| Robin_Watts | http://twiki.ghostscript.com/do/view/MuPDF/EPubCapabilities | 14:53.09 |
| henrys | jogux: let me forward on a data sheet to sos | 14:54.00 |
| | jogux: everyone else knows what ATS-IF is and is suddenly very quiet. | 14:54.34 |
| jogux | :-) | 14:54.43 |
| kens | has no useful opinions regarding anything to do with SOT | 14:55.02 |
| Robin_Watts | thinks we have quite enough problems without making ourselves a checklist of every little thing that's different. | 14:55.40 |
| henrys | kens: the tests are really for our printer languages. I thought they could find another use testing SO | 14:55.49 |
| chrisl | henrys: Only the printer language tests are really useful for us | 14:56.49 |
| henrys | chrisl: I think they are moving away from that. Having customers generate their own. | 14:57.30 |
| chrisl | Well, that's completely useless, as an industry test suite | 14:57.48 |
| henrys | probably the right thing to do with the ubiquity of drivers | 14:57.54 |
| kens | The drivers on (for example) WIndows XP are not the same as on WIndows 8 | 14:58.17 |
| chrisl | No, too much variation when you generate the actual test jobs | 14:58.25 |
| | To be sure of useful comparisons, you need to be sure you use the same Windows version (down to patch level), the application (down to patch level) and the same driver (down to patch level) with the same configuration...... | 15:00.17 |
| Robin_Watts | I'm with chrisl on this one. | 15:00.58 |
| chrisl | Considering we often struggle to get customers to give us a Ghostscript command line...... | 15:01.00 |
| Robin_Watts | They should supply the original docs, plus an official set of generated ones (or maybe multiple sets) | 15:01.32 |
| henrys | Robin_Watts: they do give you reference output. | 15:02.23 |
| marcosw | Robin_Watts: afaik they used to do that, supply the source doc/ai/... files and generated PS/PDF files. | 15:02.32 |
| henrys | I can't think of how many times I wish I had the original app file. | 15:02.43 |
| kens | henrys If I generate the file on an official printer driver here in the UK I will get different otput from you in the US. Because the default media size will be different | 15:03.02 |
| rayjj | chrisl: since most printer companies also provide a driver, they _do_ want to generate the output themselves | 15:03.37 |
| henrys | that's a pretty easy fix. I wouldn't worry about that one. | 15:03.45 |
| rayjj | using their driver. | 15:03.47 |
| chrisl | rayjj: so when they ask "how do you perform with the QL test suite?" how do we answer that? | 15:04.13 |
| rayjj | that's the problem I've had with cust 532 -- when they have an ATS file, I have to get their version that came from their driver | 15:04.21 |
| kens | Right, whch makes it useless as an industry-wide test as Chris said | 15:04.48 |
| rayjj | chrisl: we generally pick a commonly available "reference" printer and use that driver | 15:04.54 |
| henrys | I need to head on over to the other meeting... | 15:05.01 |
| chrisl | rayjj: it doesn't make for a good, consistent comparison | 15:05.39 |
| rayjj | chrisl: for the PDF ATS, QL provides PDF's generated several ways and one can specify which of the provided ones we use | 15:06.17 |
| chrisl | rayjj: yes, that's really how it should be | 15:06.40 |
| | for all the test suites | 15:07.00 |
| kens | I don't have any problem with them supplying the source files as well, so that you can test your own driver, but there ought to be a 'correct' version in the output language | 15:07.50 |
| chrisl | That would also let you benchmark your driver, as well as your printer/rip | 15:08.20 |
| kens | And even more scope for 'optimising' the tests :-) | 15:08.48 |
| rayjj | kens: for a real printer company (e.g. cust 532) they only care about what happens with their driver. | 15:08.51 |
| kens | rayjj I have no problem with that, but the point is that for comparison purposes you need something concrete | 15:09.14 |
| | And a standardised peice of 'printer language' is what should be provided | 15:09.36 |
| rayjj | but generally, since we only handle the PDF, their driver doesn't touch it, so we get files "from the wild" | 15:09.48 |
| | basically, whatever the customer wants is what is right (as long as they're big enough) :-) | 15:11.02 |
| kens | I htnk its just cost-cutting on QL's part. THey're getting people to do the work of producing the printer output. | 15:11.33 |
| | I suppose there aren't enough of us left in the RIP business ot be worth their while. | 15:11.55 |
| chrisl | rayjj: the problem is if it's dependent on their driver, then it doesn't necessarily represent a convincing validation of the implementation of the PDL - just whatever subset their driver happens to use. And that's not really the point of an "industry test suite" | 15:12.32 |
| kens | Oh Good Giref. 'SHould we revert to using subsampling?' Well that depends on whether you want your images subsampled or bicubic subsampled. | 15:13.51 |
| rayjj | chrisl: the ATS files are generally more of a Quality Assurance test suite to let printer makers validate the app->driver->pdl->paper process | 15:14.06 |
| | chrisl: and sometimes, they will do performance testing vs. the competing printers using that company's driver. Then if they come up short they dig deeper to see if the problem is due to the driver, the PDL or the engine | 15:17.15 |
| chrisl | rayjj: which is fine, but leads to a problem when potential customers ask us, Global and Adobe for speed/memory comparisons when running that test suite.... | 15:17.53 |
| kens | rayjj none of ths is a problem, and a good reason to supply the source files. Not a good reason *not* to supply a set of PDL files. | 15:17.56 |
| chrisl | Worse still, because of the QL licensing, those potential customers aren't allow to give their candidate vendors sets of files to test | 15:19.15 |
| rayjj | kens: they do provide a set of 'reference' files for the PDL | 15:20.37 |
| kens | henrys said they are 'moving away form that, having customers generate hteir own' | 15:21.15 |
| rayjj | chrisl: actually, once we bought the ATS, they did give cust 532 written permission to give us their version of the file | 15:21.32 |
| henrys | well I don't know that for sure this last data sheet I got said the masters were "optional" that's a departure from what has been done in the past. | 15:24.09 |
| kens | 'optional' probably means 'costs extra | 15:24.52 |
| rayjj | have to move my car. bbiab | 15:31.51 |
| Robin_Watts | henrys: Oh, we forgot to say. We're going to try to get 1.7b out by the end of the week. | 15:39.27 |
| henrys | Robin_Watts: oh I thought it was out... | 15:40.41 |
| Robin_Watts | We got a few epub bugs in that tor has fixed. | 15:41.12 |
| | and a memory fix. | 15:41.25 |
| henrys | scott and miles are still fooling with the newsletter but it's release is certainly this week, good to have it up as soon as possible. | 15:42.04 |
| Robin_Watts | tor8: What remains to be done before we can tag and release? Were there other bugs/tests you wanted to fix first? | 15:42.51 |
| tor8 | Robin_Watts: the commits on tor/master then I think we're in good enough shape to tag | 15:45.23 |
| Robin_Watts | tor8: The top one looks strangely simple, but otherwise all 3 look good. | 15:47.23 |
| tor8 | Robin_Watts: there are a few more coming soon, sebras is here today :) | 15:59.46 |
| Robin_Watts | ok :) | 15:59.53 |
| henrys | hi fredross-perry are you still about? | 16:06.41 |
| fredross-perry | yes, here. | 16:06.49 |
| henrys | fredross-perry: I meant to get to it in the meeting but we were thinking of getting you started in SOT. | 16:07.53 |
| | smart office | 16:08.00 |
| | all that discussion happens on skype. though | 16:08.26 |
| fredross-perry | got it. heading there now | 16:08.38 |
| Robin_Watts | chrisl: https://tour.markknopfler.com/ ? | 17:42.50 |
| mvrhel_laptop | I hate illustrator and in-design. Trying to use these tools to create some pdf examples for this blending color space stuff without icc profiles. In the save as options I specify no profiles. But they still embed the profile for the blending spaces | 17:43.25 |
| | maybe the newer versions are better | 17:45.05 |
| Robin_Watts | mvrhel_laptop: I suspect if you want fine grained control you will need to hand edit the PDF file. | 17:45.32 |
| mvrhel_laptop | yes. I had been doing that | 17:45.40 |
| | but I actually want to create a bit more complicated file with pattern and shading fills of glyphs laid over various objects | 17:46.22 |
| | I will likely use the tool to get close then go and and hack it | 17:46.33 |
| | So I had been doing a series of simple tests and building a set of notes as I blended various Source colors e.g. DeviceCMYK, DeviceRGB, ICC into various blend spaces e.g. DeviceCMYK, DeviceRGB, ICC . I thought I had a good handle on it, but this one damn altona test file with its non-isolated transparency group in a DeviceCMYK blending space with a glyph that is filled with an pattern that... | 17:56.36 |
| | ...has a shading defined by RGB ICC colors is not fitting in | 17:56.37 |
| | I will get to the bottom of this but it is going to take a bit of time | 17:58.58 |
| | one more test to make. I am getting very suspicious about the text being filled with the shading pattern | 18:19.55 |
| | ok so having the pattern in shading makes for a completely different result | 18:50.23 |
| | need to check one more thing | 18:50.34 |
| | but basically if I fill the glyph with a shading, that is quite different than filling it with a pattern that has a shading. | 18:50.57 |
| | I do see this in the spec | 18:51.05 |
| | Page 560 of PDF spec | 18:51.27 |
| | In both cases, the pattern definition is treated as if it were implicitly enclosed in a non-isolated transparency group: a non-knockout group for tiling patterns, a knockout group for shading patterns. | 18:51.28 |
| | so, right now I have a glyph filled with a tilling pattern that is filled with a shading pattern vs. a glyph filled with a shading pattern. These end up quite different through the acrobat transparency process | 18:58.43 |
| | need to try one more case | 18:59.19 |
| | ok. I think I finally found the issue with this file | 21:01.25 |
| | much less odd than I thought | 21:01.48 |
| | somehow gs is screwing up a group composition | 21:02.19 |
| | in the altona file, the D was wrapped up in two levels of transparency groups that are getting hit with an exclusion blend | 21:03.43 |
| fredross-perry | anyone on Skype? | 23:25.19 |
| henrys | fredross-perry: pretty late for the euros | 23:25.48 |
| fredross-perry | ok tomorrow then | 23:25.58 |
| mvrhel_laptop | ok. I have beat on this to the point where it almost appears to me that Adobe is doing special color conversions based upon the blend mode. need to set up a test file for that | 23:54.40 |
| | done for now | 23:54.51 |
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